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[Music]

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you

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I actually came to Marsha in 1967 as a

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co-op from Alabama in him I really

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hadn't thought about coming to NASA but

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I kind of got bored with college for a

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semester and decided to go down to the

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coop office and they had this position

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available at Martian and I applied for

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it and and got it where the process

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while you go sign up in the coop office

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and then they would all show you the

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position that was available that was in

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your particular major so I just went and

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it happen to be a position open at

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Marshall and the reason I liked that

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position what because I could steal and

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at school and the dormitories and and

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come back tomorrow every day versus

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having to move a lot of folks coop they

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went to different cities so you had to

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go find residents and all that stuff for

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me it was a lot easier to accept a

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moistur position wherever an act when I

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can am and and 6to4 I decided to major

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in math primarily because of Frank

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Harley who had gone a.m. and taught me

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math in high school and at that time in

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Alabama if you didn't have eight

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students taking a course the state

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wouldn't pay for what anybody to teach

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the class so Frank Hollis trigonometry

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after school we came back after school

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to teach trigonometry because we didn't

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have eight people wanting to take it he

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taught our serial trimmer and I geometry

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doing one of our breaks and taught us

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advanced Arabic doing some study hall so

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we was able to pick up therefore from

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Frank because he he was just debt on

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interested in students being able to or

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to median math when I came to A&M my a

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durable class was the same algebra book

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that I'd used in high school I guess

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that's the only book Frank had so he

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taught us out of that stuff so that one

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thing people thought I really smart but

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they didn't know I had already taken the

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course once before so that worked out

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really good

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but how would foster came to a dime

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about that same time and he started the

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physics program now so myself and other

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students were the first students to

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minor in physics at Alabama A&M so

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foster start that program and you know

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eventually they produce the PhD in that

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program which was a big tribute to dr.

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Foster so he was really pushing math and

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science and he also our was the one that

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started helping students get on

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positions I had a redstone and NASA and

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also he had disagreement with in my

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teeth that he could send students there

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doing the summer so he kind of explained

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it you know the horizon for students to

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have opportunity to go to graduate

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school after am so so I think it was

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really the beginning I would see of the

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Renaissance of math and science at

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Alabama A&M and my first job at Marsha

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was the computer operator and bll on

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4200 down in the basement and operated a

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controlled date of 1600 computer where

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my first day as I always say it was kind

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of exciting and every henshin at the

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same time because I had always been in a

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total black environment you know I had

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went to all-black high school and AM was

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predominantly black so when I came to

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NASA that was my first time being or

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kind of integrated into early a majority

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organization so the kind of impressive

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about how that was going to be and kind

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of excited about coming to NASA and

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finding out what was going on there so

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my first day I came in and it was very

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nicely to our Doris Road and I never

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will forget as she was over the

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operation of the computer that anything

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and so I came in and Larry Caddick guy

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from Auburn we both came in the same day

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as co-op and she said you boys don't

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have to be afraid I can teach you how to

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operate a computer so so from now and

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she made us feel relaxed and

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it really was an easier transition going

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to learn how to operate the computer on

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the first date when I came to the

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computer lab special operating in 4200 I

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was in 4200 and most of the other folks

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in computer levels in 46 63 so there

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were some blacks doesn't new over there

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but you know my first experience like I

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guess most of my first semester I didn't

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get have much interaction over there but

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there were people like Clyde Foster

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Delana highly rich at hall and a flood

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sure that was working in the in the

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computer lab that I knew so later on I

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had a chance to interact with them and

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they was able to or kind of lead me

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through the process and the things you

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didn't notice that a whole lot but you

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know at that time I think it was a I

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didn't notice the cursor had changed oh

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you know women's wouldn't allowed to

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wear pants back in that timeframe a lot

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of people don't remember them but uh I

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think it was like 16 68 6 or something

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and when they first said women's wear

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pants to work so so that was a big

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change I didn't notice that we had more

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blacks coming on coop at that time

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because they will say other people for

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me and him that came on coops before

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before after ideas so so I could sense

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that there was some change in but you

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know the whole management structure was

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primarily white you know there weren't

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very many blacks and in management at

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that time so I really didn't think much

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about it I just knew that I wanted to do

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the best job that I could and that you

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know I had aspirations from the very

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beginning I guess I did a paper

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everything graduate school where they

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said lay out your career and I kind of

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laid out my career and my goal was to be

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in charge of a major organization within

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NASA some didn't really see I guess the

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direct relationship between you know

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what was happening locally like downtown

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in motion but I did see the effort to to

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hire more minorities in motion during

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that time period Lee I mean once the EEO

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board got up and running they kind of

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set goals for sinners to do and they

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start actually looking at the percentage

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of minority had so that wasn't there was

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a big effort to go and and and recruit

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and how more minorities and Charlie

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Smoot was hired in the Human Resources

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office back at that time primarily to

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recruit blacks to NASA and a lot of the

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blacks that came in was a result of

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Charlie going out recruiting them

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between I think between Charlie Smoot

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and Clyde Foster they probably brought

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in 90% of the Earl or blacks that the

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moisture space flexing of both of those

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I've talked to Charlie about that over

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the years and what he did he said we

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have an opportunity here to get a good

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job he talked about Hunt's vehicles even

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though he was from over on us feel had

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been around him for a while his wife

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worked at Alabama A&M so he could sell

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them only you know the the ANM community

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are primarily selling on opportunity at

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Marcia to come to be a part of something

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great early on so I think that what

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Charlie's message you know we have a

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fluent black community here you know

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Marcia we're gonna give you the

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opportunity to succeed in a career and

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in math and science that you've all you

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know you went to school for I know some

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of his big recruiting down Southern

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University for he talked some people in

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FM coming I said after I will start

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cooperating we had a I think one of my

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alternate court was memorable from down

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you know if I thought there was the

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issue I went to talk to people you know

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I think we've talked about before that

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day would this one got it people kind of

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said that he was prejudiced in all this

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so I went to his office and sat down and

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talked to him and and he said well I'm

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not productive and I will help you learn

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as much as I can until I think you're

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ready to take over my job and then I'm

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not telling you anything

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one of the thing that I always a

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remembered you know how you go an

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organization that more people are

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looking at yourself you have a bigger

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responsibility to carry yourself in a

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certain way so when I came out here I

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think the high black was a gs-13 and it

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was clouds false then you know you know

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Heidi and those guys over in come laughs

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I think that would be that was the

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highest grade we had out here and later

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on I think you know after the EEO office

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get started you know Clyde got promoted

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to a 14 when he came to the office and

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and then eventually all some of the

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other guys got promoted to a young - 14

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people like Richard Hall and fletching

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those guys and Lord gardening he was in

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paid you know program development I

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wellyeah cloud was you know he was one

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of those guys and one of his mantras was

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Clyde to always try to help other people

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so although he was a you know very smart

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and very successful himself he always

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looked at 420 of other people you know

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being interested in in computer science

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and wanting to give people the

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opportunity now they gave him a leave of

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absence from NASA to go work at A&M

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full-time and he started a computer

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program and turned out that was the

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first computer science on program in the

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state of Alabama at Alabama A&M

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a lot of people probably don't know that

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now but you know Clyde he did all that

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and you know I kind of won that you know

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you know how do you kind of do that on

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your own you know from just going with

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the limited resources in in but a very

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successful program I mean still

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successful program today and students

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are able to contribute from his efforts

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so one of the things in a couple have

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our in program and you know you have to

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have certain certifications to do

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certain kind of program and at that time

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most of the training was done downtown

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in hotels and you know blacks weren't

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allowed and then early or late 50s and

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things so cloud to work to get those

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courses taught at a.m. on he went to IBM

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or somewhere else to take the courses to

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get certified so so his big push was to

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make sure that opportunities was

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available for everybody and when I first

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came on full-time in August so about six

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to eight kind of pulled me to the side

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and say I know you I know you're smart

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say if you are if you keep your nose

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clean and do a good job you can go

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forward in this organization you know so

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I kind of wonder what - keep your nose

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clean was but eventually I found that

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that was you know not not get into

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trouble do you work and and and thing

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would work out for you so so he was good

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in that perspective and you know later

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on about 7:00 to 3:00 us some time they

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started agency-wide eco opportunity

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board and I Clyde had was made deputy or

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eel officer at martial arts innocent so

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we got a chance to

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a lot then because I was on that board

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when they started the board it was made

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I pulled the EEO officers from all the

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sinners and all the deputy center

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directors and they had four employees on

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that board and I was one of those

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employees we had a lady from garlic

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black lady in a white lady from Ames and

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then we had an expending gentleman from

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down at Kennedy Space Center so the four

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of us was on there I guess

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took Carolyn give the employees a voice

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but they didn't realize that we had big

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voices so we are kind of rock the boat

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on a lot of stuff as a part of that

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committee and eventually they decided

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unfortunately I was fighting a war for

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us casaya drafted into the army right

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after i came to work for vanessa so i

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was i was in the army

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at that time and we was all looking at

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it on TV and everybody was looking at me

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because I was at NASA saying is this

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coming being successful so you know I

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was assuring everybody that it was great

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and it was gonna work and it really did

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you know something so I wasn't I didn't

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get an opportunity to go seeing it

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Apollo launches but you know from my

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knowledge and Marsha and my arm being

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able to or running the programs of the

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trajector to the moon from a lot of the

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folks as co-op and also start some of

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the programming that I graduated I kind

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of knew the steps and I could say this

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is what should happen next this is what

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should happen next so I could go through

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the sequence of what was supposed to

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happen my class graduated in May of 1968

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and I didn't graduate to August because

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I had done the to co-op period which is

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very fortunate the only graduate three

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months later than my class but before I

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got home and me I had a letter to go

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down for my examination you know for

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physical for the army so I came back got

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a draft board and told him I wasn't

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graduating to August so you know could

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they see fit did not draft me before

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August and they assured me that they

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would but they didn't give me much time

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my buddy

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in September I got the letter to say you

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have to go in October see so but I went

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to Fort Benning did basic training at

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Fort Benning and then I got assigned to

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Fort Lewis Washington and I was as a

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computer operator so my experience at a

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computer awful really gave me a good MOS

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in the army so I didn't have to go out

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to infantry and all of those good things

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so I Fort Lewis working in an overseas

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replacement office where we actually

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process people through that was going to

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Korea and Vietnam primarily to Vietnam

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so we got our list every day of

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everybody that was coming through so I

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go down the list to see if there were

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people don't know that I knew and a lot

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of my friends came through some of the

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people that I was in basic training came

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through

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so I'd go down and have a drink with him

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and say I hope I have one wish before

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you come back

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fortunately when we got down to about 17

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months us so in that particular unit

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people usually got sent to Vietnam I got

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down to about 14 months and I got

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assigned to the Pentagon so people say

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who do you know so I don't know anybody

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you know but they needed compute

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operators so that that computer

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operation experienced really benefited

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me throughout being an army so got

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assigned to the Pentagon and far more to

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lots of services unit you know we had

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Air Force Navy and all of those guys in

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and we actually worked in the up at for

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Ritchie

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where they held underground Pentagon up

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they and them in the mountain essel so

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that was very fortunate didn't go to

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Vietnam you know watched a lot of folks

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I could see that the time frame

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forgiving promoter to a14 was too long

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for my ambition so that's when I decided

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to apply for jobs elsewhere so I applied

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for a job at headquarters and apply for

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a job at Kennedy and within a one week

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period I got I got two job offers at

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headquarters in the one job office

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dining Kennedy so I decided to take the

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119 Kennedy because I kind of decided

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that you could go to headquarters almost

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any time so I went to Kennedy has a 14

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and had a very good career I ended up as

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deputy center director down at Kennedy

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and left's down with the headquarters as

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a associate administrator for

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institution and management which is Nana